Commons talk:Wiki Loves Monuments 2024 in the United States

WLM 2024 in the United States

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Wiki Loves Monuments - United States Competition A campaign to improve our coverage of U.S. historic and cultural sites throughout the month of October.

WLM USA 2024 Talk Page

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What is the plan for submissions uploaded outside of the contest window?

So, as I write this, we have 7+ days before the contest begins, and per the contest rules appearing at COM:WLMUS2024, "Photos [...] must be uploaded during October 2024 to be included in the contest". There are already nearly 80 images in Category:Wiki Loves Monuments 2024 in the United States unreviewed and Category:Images from Wiki Loves Monuments 2024 in the United States combined, the earliest of which appear to have been uploaded on August 12, some 50 days before the start of the contest. Is the plan to mark these early submissions as "contest ineligible" on or after October 1? Who can modify the upload widget, https://wikilovesmonuments.us/upload, to prohibit uploads before October 1, 2024 and after October 31, 2024? -- DanielPenfield (talk) 12:35, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

@DanielPenfield: Thanks for highlighing this issue! On the event page, I've gone ahead and added a notice that the contest hasn't started yet, and hid the upload links that appear in the tabs and the prose (these shouldn't have been added until October). I've also disabled the upload portal until October.

For the photos uploaded in August, I'm inclined for those to be marked ineligible as that's not even close to the upload period. For the photos uploaded so far in September, while they would normally be ineligible, I'm inclined to make an exception due to our unclear documentation and our early linking to the upload portal (and the fact that WLM running in either September or October depending on country is enough to cause confusion by itself). Will bring this up with the other organizers and jury to finalize that decision, and will also consider feedback here. Thanks, ~Kevin Payravi (talk) 07:41, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Here is a summary of the accounts uploading submissions before the start of the contest:

Contest uploader	First contest upload date for 2024	Last contest upload date before October 2024	Number of contest uploads as of 30 September 2024 GMT:
User:Annieanpanpan	2024-08-13	2024-08-13	1
User:Blackbettie2	2024-09-09	2024-09-09	1
User:Bridgepix	2024-08-21	2024-08-21	2
User:Charasda	2024-09-24	2024-09-24	2
User:Cjschlaiss	2024-08-21	2024-08-21	1
User:Edonison	2024-08-13	2024-08-13	1
User:Gweld813	2024-09-22	2024-09-22	1
User:Holachristina	2024-08-31	2024-08-31	1
User:ImAWubbox1984	2024-09-23	2024-09-23	1
User:JiriMatejicek	2024-09-12	2024-09-12	3
User:Jon Roanhaus	2024-09-23	2024-09-25	25
User:Magicpiano	2024-09-24	2024-09-24	2
User:Profebag	2024-09-26	2024-09-26	1
User:Quentin Melson	2024-09-10	2024-09-10	1
User:Raist131	2024-09-20	2024-09-20	1
User:Robert Kennicott	2024-09-14	2024-09-14	6
User:SharonPapierdreams	2024-08-12	2024-09-29	81
User:Travellers & Tinkers	2024-09-30	2024-09-30	1

-- DanielPenfield (talk) 00:02, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Amazing, thank you! ~Kevin Payravi (talk) 00:11, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil! I really shouldn't be surprised at the level of self-serving behavior on Wikimedia projects anymore, but this year's contest seems to have achieved a new volume of people more than happy to ignore the contest rules. Also, there's the lingering problem of people submitting months or years after contest ends, for example this April 2024 submission for the 2023 contest. -- DanielPenfield (talk) 01:32, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Let me just explain my case. I have taken photos in various countries and in the 12 years, all the national editions of WLM ran in September. Thus, it did not occur to me that there would be a different date for the US version until after the photos were uploaded. I guess this could be the case for other people, too.

In my opinion, the exact upload date does not really matter, as long as it is between the last edition's end and current edition's end. JiriMatejicek (talk) 07:58, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Your statement	My response
"...and in the 12 years, all the national editions of WLM ran in September"	WLMUS hasn't run in September since 2019
"...it did not occur to me that there would be a different date for the US version until after the photos were uploaded."'	So you just head straight for the upload form for every contest without consulting the contest rules? The only thing that matters to you is that the upload form accepts your submission? Note that as of the date of your uploads for this contest, this version of the WLMUS contest landing page with the statement "Coming in October" had been up for 10 days.
"In my opinion, the exact upload date does not really matter, as long as it is between the last edition's end and current edition's end."	Right, because I'm sure it's zero effort for organizers to run these contests for a month, therefore it would be zero effort for organizers to run these contests continually year after year with no break.

-- DanielPenfield (talk) 12:01, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

I wouldn't call it self-serving behavior, that's an assumption of bad faith. Submissions outside of the submission window could be because of unclear rules, confusion from varied submission windows by country, or just getting excited about the contest and submitting photos without paying attention to the rules. Ultimately, all submissions are appreciated, and the judging process has means to filter out submissions that fall outside the window. ~Kevin Payravi (talk) 08:37, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Your statement	My response
"Submissions outside of the submission window could be because of unclear rules..."	"Unclear rules"? The initial contest landing page states "details coming soon". A reasonable person would interpret this as "they haven't posted the rules yet, so I'll have to check back later to see when those rules are actually posted." By early September, you had updated the contest landing page to state "Coming in October". By mid-September, someone updated the contest landing page to include the explicit "must be uploaded during October 2024 to be included in the contest." I don't think the problem is the clarity of the rules--I think the problem is the upload widget being left wide-open before the contest start date and after prior year's contest concluding date coupled with a rise in low-impulse control would-be contestants who have absolutely no problem taking advantage of said wide-open upload widget.
"...confusion from varied submission windows by country..."	So as far as I know, you decided to delay the WLMUS contest until October back during the pandemic in 2020. And as far as I know, you and only you have decided to hold the contest in October instead of returning to September for subsequent contests. Passive voice is a wonderful way to distract from the main issue, so feel free to correct my understanding.
"...or just getting excited about the contest and submitting photos without paying attention to the rules."	Yes, consideration should be given only to those with low impulse control, at the expense of the people who actually exercise self-discipline by waiting for and then abiding by the contest rules.
"...the judging process has means to filter out submissions that fall outside the window."	Oh, so there's at least one secret view that only the judges see. What other filters do you apply--maybe there's a list of camera models deemed fancy enough to produce images worth looking at and if an image wasn't produced by an approved camera model, it's excluded from the secret jury view? Furthermore, why do you believe the right of the low impulse control contestant to not be distressed about their flouting of the rules to be more important than the right of the majority of contestants who follow the rules to be assured that their submissions are given fair consideration?

-- DanielPenfield (talk) 12:01, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

@DanielPenfield: You have, and continue to make, incorrect assumptions, and it is getting tiring. I'm happy to answer questions and gather feedback about the contest, but I'd appreciate more grace and not jumping to unfounded conclusions.

Regarding unclear rules: I can tell when uploads are coming through the WLM-US upload portal vs. another source based on the categories that are added upon upload, and the vast majority of early uploaders are actually not going through the WLM-US upload portal. Looking at it closer, I suspect most early submissions are coming through tools that have been advertised internationally throughout September, or other sources such as the "Upload image" links that appear on the English Wikipedia's NRHP tables (moving forward, those links should be updated on the English Wikipedia to not link to the wlm-us campaign outside the edit window). Ultimately, there are a number of ways that uploaders can hit the UploadWizard wlm-us campaign without ever having landed on the WLM-US competition homepage. So when I say unclear rules, I mean that it may not be clear when the contest starts per-country between all these mediums (both WLM-US and international communications, and the various WLM-related tools out there). Most of our participants discover the event through the CentralNotice banner (which is only shown in the US in October), so when there is a surge in early contributors, there is likely at least one other driver leading users to upload to wlm-us early.

Regarding running in September vs October: Since 2020, the Wiki Loves Monuments international team has allowed campaigns to run in either September and October, and the US is not the only one doing it. If you looked at the participating countries in 2024, you can see there are 29 countries whose upload period runs through October, or even more confusingly, in-between both September and October.

Regarding judging: I don't appreciate the fantasied slippery slope. Yes, there is a "secret view" insofar that judging is confidential and takes place through a wonderful tool that enables volunteers to review thousands of photos. You expressed concern about images being uploaded outside the upload period, and I'm telling you that we are able to easily exclude photos outside of the upload window, as we have done in previous years. I'm happy to re-categorize those images on Commons moving forward to make it more transparent and clear. We also filter out most images that are just of historic markers, which are categorized here for 2024. We also do a preliminary round of review (see here) that focuses on filtering out low-quality, low-resolution, and general "typical quality" photos of very common monuments (which is functionally like the other jury rounds in that humans perform this review), to reduce the burden on following rounds.

To conclude: the reason I said I feel inclined on allowing September uploads to be included in the contest is because there is evidently some source(s) of confusion leading to the uptick of early contributors in September and, with an assumption of good faith, I put the onus of that on myself and WLM communications moreso than the uploaders themselves. But like I said -- the decision has not been finalized and feedback is being taken, as you've just provided. If participants feel it is unfair, then we won't include them. ~Kevin Payravi (talk) 21:00, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Your response is exactly why Wiki____ is a dying project. 57.140.28.17 19:53, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Exactly why do you think "Wiki____ is a dying project"? Is it because I dared to point out that the person running the contest has been leaving the submission page wide open all year for many years, allowing the unscrupulous to use it to pretend like they participated in past contests long after they've concluded? Or is it because I protested the secret view of submissions that only judges see? Or perhaps you're just lashing out because you're one of the low-impulse control contestants who used the wide-open submission page to try to slip your uploads in early? -- DanielPenfield (talk) 07:15, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Greetings, all -

My pic submissions were not intended to be part of a or the contest. I have been submitting images of sites on the National Register Historic Places page for eleven (11) years. These efforts cover nearly 1,300 NRHP sites to date. My interest is in 'filling in the blanks' on the NRHP pages. I have uploaded two more on the Lyon County, Nevada page this morning. The previous submissions (25) in September, 2024 were all intended to be placed on the Nye County, Nevada page. Let me know if you have questions or need more information. Jon Roanhaus Jon Roanhaus (talk) 14:54, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

@Jon Roanhaus: Noted, thank you! ~Kevin Payravi (talk) 15:11, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

@Jon Roanhaus: So you claim that your submissions "were not intended to be part of a or the contest" and yet you've used the contest submission form (which once again has been left wide open) to submit at least six new images to the contest three days after the contest ended: File:-Charles Clinton Stone Row House2 NRHP 82003225 Nye County, NV.jpg, File:-Charles Clinton Stone Row House NRHP 82003225 Nye County, NV.jpg, File:Charles Clinton Stone Row House6 NRHP 82003225 Nye County, NV.jpg, File:Manhattan School6 NRHP 06000108 Nye County, NV.jpg, File:Manhattan School5 NRHP 06000108 Nye County, NV.jpg, File:Manhattan School4 NRHP 06000108 Nye County, NV.jpg. Your words don't match your actions. -- DanielPenfield (talk) 06:11, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

@DanielPenfield: Why is this such a big deal to you? The upload portal and UploadWizard WLM campaigns both say the contest is closed. WLM upload campaigns are often linked from a variety of tools and if users want to go through them to upload images (which can be a convience for discovery and filling out NRHP IDs), they can. It has no impact on the contest itself since the judging does not include photos uploaded outside of the campaign. It's such a non-issue and I don't know why you keep badgering users on it. ~Kevin Payravi (talk) 06:38, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

I'll also add that Jon himself has said that he is going through the upload links on Wikipedia NRHP articles (like en:National_Register_of_Historic_Places_listings_in_Monroe_County,_Ohio), which link directly to the wlm-us UploadWizard campaign (and do not go through the upload portal that you keep bringing up). Jon is not doing anything wrong by contributing photos of NRHP sites and you frankly need to stop assuming some weird ulterior motives from contributors. ~Kevin Payravi (talk) 07:07, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

So now the truth comes out: Somebody constructed the individual NRHP list articles on the English Wikipedia to behave as if they're submitting images to some random WLMUS contest whether or not the upload date is within that contest's submission window AND regardless of whether any WLMUS contest is currently running at all. Looks like that decision is over six years old, so this problem has been around for a long, long time, and not surprisingly, nobody could be bothered to raise the most basic question: Should you actually verify that a contest is running and the upload timestamp falls within the contest window before you start slapping {{Wiki Loves Monuments 2024}} or Category:Wiki Loves Monuments 2024 in the United States unreviewed on uploads?

Certainly you suspected by September 3 that something was wrong and yet you did nothing. You really should have known by September 23, but you seem to have brushed it off with the usual evasiveness, stonewalling, and use of the passive voice to avoid all responsibility. And when someone else raised the same concern on October 4, you brushed that off with a bunch of the usual platitudes because why would you lift a finger to ensure the integrity of the contest? I particularly enjoy your rebuke that I'm "somehow outta line" when you are the sole possessor of all of the insider information and could have used that insider information to address the issue two months ago, but instead you chose to stonewall and spew all manner of high-sounding platitude to justify in your inaction. -- DanielPenfield (talk) 11:05, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

I already told you in my message on October 1st that after taking a closer look at the early uploads, I found that they were mostly coming from other sources and tools, including the NRHP upload links on Wikipedia. This is not a new revelation. The wlm-us UploadWizard campaign is set up to allow users to easily add NRHP IDs, which is why it's linked to from Wikipedia articles and elsewhere to allow users to more easily upload and tag photos of NRHP sites. When the contest is running, the campaign is configured to add the Wiki Loves Monuments 2024 template (and the existence of this template is what actually "submits" the photo to the contest). When the contest is not running, the UploadWizard campaign has a banner that informs the user that the contest is not live, and the Wiki Loves Monuments 2024 template is not added when the user uploads. Now, I did find that the "unreviewed" category is added regardless of whether the contest has started, to serve as catch-all to track new uploads (and evidently UploadWizard campaigns do not have the ability to toggle category additions based on time like we can the template). But this by itself does not enter an image into the competition. The only uploads prior to October that would have the Wiki Loves Monuments 2024 template are the ones where users manually added it themselves.

Can the UploadWizard campaigns and categories be handled more cleanly? Sure. Is it an issue for the running of the contest? No, because like I've said, we have the tools to properly filter uploads submitted outside of event timeframe. I do not understand why this continues to be a big issue and warrants your continued questioning of contributors' intentions. ~Kevin Payravi (talk) 12:27, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Daniel and Kevin - Thanks for your message(s). From my end, I am not seeing a contest submission form. I am trying to 'fill in the blanks' for the NRHP Sites in Nye County, Nevada only. I do not have an interest in the contest. Since the images weren't posted to the NRHP page for Nye County, I took the initiative to re-submit the images after the month of October had concluded, presuming that the original submissions were discarded. I don't know of any other way to submit images outside the contest. Again, I do not have an interest in the contest. I maintain a continuing interest in filling gaps in the National Register pages. Let me know if you have further questions or need more information. This is a passionate interest of mine as witnessed by close to 2,000 image submissions to wikipedia for nearly 1,300 sites over a period of eleven years. Regards, Jon Roanhaus Jon Roanhaus (talk) 01:07, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Noting that the early submissions will not be included for judging, for consistency. While some early contributors had meant to submit to the contest, others simply go through the wlm-us campaign to upload historic sites and had no intention or desire to be in the contest. ~Kevin Payravi (talk) 06:46, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Result of hurricane Helene

result of hurricane Helene 2603:7080:2FF0:95F0:4960:2C17:7A16:F6AD 21:00, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

What exactly are the dates for this contest?

Can someone explain why there are so many photos included in the contest that are upload prior to October 2024 and especially so many not even taken in 2024?

As an example, right here in is a photo taken in April 2024. Link: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:L1060596_.jpg_TRAIN_STATION,_PUNTA_GORDA_FLORIDA_25APR2024.jpg Skarz (talk) 23:20, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Hi @Skarz: The rule for Wiki Loves Monuments is that photos need to be uploaded during the specified time frame. It doesn't matter when the photo was actually taken.

Regarding photos uploaded before October 2024, see the first discussion above on this page. Nothing really stops anyone from adding any photo to any WLM categories. We could do a better job of periodically checking and recategorizing submissions from outside the specified time frame. That being said, when it comes to the actual judging, we can filter out any photos that weren't uploaded within the contest timeframe. ~Kevin Payravi (talk) 19:53, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Allowed licenses

In the competition rules, it says "you must release your photo under a free license that allows for re-use of the image (CC BY-SA license or similar)". I was assuming that this meant that releasing the photo any of the licenses allowed for Wikimedia Commons was acceptable. But when doing through the linked upload wizard, the only allowed option was CC-BY-SA. Are other usually-acceptable licenses like CC-BY or CC-0 also eligible for submitting to the contest? Thanks. PeterCooperJr (talk) 23:15, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes @PeterCooperJr CC-BY and CC-0 are acceptable. Ktkvtsh (talk) 00:29, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. So is it that I just can't upload pictures using one of those licenses using the designated wizard for the contest, and would instead just need to add one of the Images_from_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_2024… categories directly using the "normal" upload wizard? (That is, I guess I'm asking if adding the category the only thing to make something an entry into the contest?) PeterCooperJr (talk) 01:13, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes, adding the appropriate category will enter your image in the contest. Ktkvtsh (talk) 01:42, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

@PeterCooperJr: Best way is to add Template:Wiki_Loves_Monuments_2024 ({{Wiki Loves Monuments 2024|us}}) instead of adding the category directly. ~Kevin Payravi (talk) 04:02, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

@PeterCooperJr: Oh! Also: If you go into your Preferences and go to the Upload Wizard tab, you can change the default selected license that appears for you (or even set your own wikitext). ~Kevin Payravi (talk) 16:00, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, that's useful to know. When doing a "normal" upload wizard I get a choice of several licenses (and that seems like what that preference controls), but doing the upload link on this contest page goes through a similar flow but only offers CC-BY-SA as the option. I ended up just going through the contest upload wizard and changing the license on the page after the wizard was done, which seemed to work fine. Thank you so much! PeterCooperJr (talk) 16:05, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Santa maría tulpetlac

como se puede escribir algo tan horrible describiendo el pueblo y su gente quien hace eso 2600:1700:5B00:5950:3045:6DEB:95BA:F934 01:42, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Information on how well submissions did

Will submitters be able to find out how many rounds in the judging process their submissions got through, and details like how many "stars" were awarded if it made it to Round 2? Or are those just internal for the judging process, and only which ones made the top 10 are announced? (The contest really inspired me to start contributing to Wikimedia Commons, and while I don't have any real expectation of winning anything, it'd be neat to know if I managed to get a 4-star result in Round 2, for instance.) Thanks! PeterCooperJr (talk) 17:43, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

Hi @PeterCooperJr: scores are kept internal, sorry! Just the top-10 are publicly shared at the end. There are a variety of reasons, but the main one is privacy, for both participants and the jury. I'm glad that you've been inspired to contribute through WLM (and that most of your submissions are currently used on article or Wikidata item!). ~Kevin Payravi (talk) 03:19, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. That makes sense, I just figured it couldn't hurt to ask. And I think my pictures are only in use in Wikidata because I make Wikidata items for what they were depicting and put them in there (and on Wikivoyage because it pulls from Wikidata and I added the item on Wikivoyage). But it's certainly been a fun project, and hopefully useful to others, too. PeterCooperJr (talk) 13:57, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

When will 2024 US winners be announced?

Hello, can you provide information about when the 2024 US winners will be announced? It looks like all other countries determined winners as of December 2nd. 2600:382:1124:1301:D08C:DA2E:50F4:980C 19:51, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Winners for the US have also been determined as of December 2 and sent to the international jury, they just haven't been publicly announced yet. Public annoucement should be very soon, once we've finished reaching out to the top-10 and finalizing details and the announcement itself. ~Kevin Payravi (talk) 07:09, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

So we're up to mid-January and I still can't find results. Am I just missing where it'd be posted? Thanks. — PeterCooperJr (talk) 13:19, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

@PeterCooperJr: just posted the winners here! Took a bit longer than expected as I waited to hear back from all winners to confirm their details. Thanks, ~Kevin Payravi (talk) 08:36, 16 January 2025 (UTC)