Commons:Categories for discussion/2022/10/Category:Statues of tortoises

Category:Statues of tortoises

although turtles and tortoises are not quite the same [1], it is difficult to make this differenciation in sculpture. My proposal would be to merge the tortoise branch to the turtles branch Category:Statues of turtles. best Herzi Pinki (talk) 18:36, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nom. Enyavar (talk) 06:46, 29 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Herzi Pinki and Enyavar: If we're going to do that, wouldn't we want to merge at the "Turtles/Tortoises in art" level? I'm wondering why merge statues but not sculptures, or even the other media types that are duplicated (drawings, paintings, prints, etc.). Are you thinking to do away with the general tortoise categories, or leave them as subcats of the turtle categories? I'm just trying to understand what you have in mind. Thanks. -- Auntof6 (talk) 10:13, 26 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Auntof6: In Category:Statues of turtles 23 of 39 are tortoises, if the two concepts are similar / the same / different to keep apart (also for non-native speakers), we should have only one branch. If we keep turtles / tortoises apart, maybe the root cat should be Category:Statues of turtles and tortoises (for unclear cases) with Category:Statues of tortoises and Category:Statues of turtles as separate subcats. I'm not sure to go with my proposal. That's why it's a proposal. But anything that is structurally changed, should be applied from the root category "Turtles/Tortoises in art" downward. best --Herzi Pinki (talk) 15:15, 26 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Even years later I am still regularly confused by the distinctions of turtles and tortoises in English. This is a tortoise. This is a tortoise. This is a tortoise. This is a tortoise. This is a turtle. This is a turtle. Here is a turtle, and look, this one flies. Sometimes the categorizers can't even decide: This sculpture of a tortoise is a turtle in applied arts? Actually, no, it's a disfigured shrub.

According to the link by Herzi Pinki ([1] above), things seem to be easy: turtles are the ones that have paddle-like limbs for swimming while tortoises are the ones that walk on four legs. Which means, all my examples above are categorized in the exact wrong category. However, en:Turtles and en:Tortoises disagree with the link anyway: this turtle walks and is not a tortoise. Instead, the definition of "tortoise" depends on whether a speaker identifies with British, American or Australian English. The US website linked by Herzi Pinki for example, gives the reader a British English definition, apparently.

Our category tree places all tortoise artwork under Category:Testudinidae (which represents the American English definition). Meanwhile, the categorized content itself is mostly according on the British English definitions (if a turtle in art walks, it must be a tortoise). That is maximally confusing.

Commons is a global project for users of all languages, including quite a few languages that are neither subtype of English, and that often do not distinguish in quite the same way as English speakers, nor would many users fully understand the nuances of English that even native speakers cannot define in a universal way. That is probably why so much artwork is badly categorized under the current system. Additionally, much of that artwork doesn't even allow to properly determine the species of turtle anyway: it depicts the "turtle animal" that consists of a big round slow-moving shell with six weird limbs sticking out.

My suggestion is that we stop distinguishing between turtles and tortoises throughout the entire "art" tree (not just statues, as Auntof6 pointed out, rightly). The exception is artwork that unmistakably shows actual Testudinidae tortoises: those can be allowed under "Testudinidae in art", but not the ambiguous "Tortoises in art". There should also be a hat-note in the remaining turtle categories, to prevent well-meaning categorizers to re-create "tortoise" categories.

tl;dr ⇒ merge and redirect all "tortoise" categories into their "turtle" counterparts.

Best, --Enyavar (talk) 00:39, 27 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Herzi Pinki's proposal, as it creates a union category. I rather support merging the tortoise and turtle categories to Category:Testudines in art. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs • uploads) 11:58, 20 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Enyavar's rather helpful arguments (even English speaking folks do not have the same implicit associations, which is more contradicting, than unifying - making a rule like English is the primary language for Commons difficult to follow) lead us to the Latin name (still a union). So we agree, that differing turtles and tortoises in art does not make much sense (it's error prone esp. for non commoners). I leave the correct name to you guys. best --Herzi Pinki (talk) 07:52, 23 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I oppose the suggestion of "Testudines in art" being the catchall category, we should stick with "Turtles in art", as that is more intuitive for both native and non-native speakers of English. And despite all differences, English definitions still say that "Tortoises" are a subgroup of "Turtles". With most artistic depictions we're not talking actual biology anyway. --Enyavar (talk) 08:13, 23 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

This could work. It would be good to have:

A hatnote on the turtles category saying that it includes tortoises
A redirect from "Tortoises in art"

These could help avoid confusion. -- Auntof6 (talk) 15:38, 23 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]